Re: An interview with Herbert I. Schiller

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: : : : : : Information Inequality : : : An interview with Herbert I. Schiller : : : By Geert Lovink : : : Herbert Schiller is a critic with a clear, political and social view : : : on media matters. He has been Professor of Communication at the : : : University of California at San Diego and is well known for his 'Mass : : : Communications and American Empire' and other writings on American : : : cultural imperialism. One could position Schiller as a mediator between : : : the US-foreign policy type of media analysis done by Noam Chomsky and : : : the more conservative, moral critiques of Neil Postman. Schiller has : : : elements of both. Like Chomsky, his lack of knowledge about the history : : : of the Sovjet Union, stalinism and the destruction of people's lives, : : : cities, countries and nature by sovjet communism is highly disturbing. : : : But this counts for many of the old leftists, who are themselves a : : : product of the Cold War (both in Europe, the US and in the 'Third : : : World'). Net criticism is a movement from '89' and therefor celebrates : : : the fall of the Wall and the end of these dictatorships, from my point : : : of view. All anti-US-imperialism, which rejects to study the tremendous : : : tragedies, caused by 'socialism', is condemned to history and will : : : itself become another fundamentalism. : : : But this was not the topic of our conversation. : : : Fortunately, the materialist critiques on large corporations are always : : : true and so is Schiller's latest book 'Information Inequality'. It : : : deals with topics like selection mechanisms in the culture industry, : : : the sell out of public properties like school, libraries and elections, : : : 'data deprivation', special effects for capturing viewers, the global : : : rule of American pop culture and last but on least, the inforbahn, : : : being the 'latest blind alley'. Lately, Herbert Schiller wrote an : : : updated critique on internet and social exclusion in the French : : : magazine Le Monde Diplomatique. This interview was conducted in : : : Muenich, during the conference 'Internet & Politics', on february 20, : : : 1997. : : : GL: Could you tell us something about the pre-history of cyberspace? : : : When did you encounter the cyber ideology for the first time? : : : HS: One of the earliest was Daniel Bell, who wrote about 'the end of : : : ideology' and 'the post-industrial society'. Production didn't ammount : : : too much, in his view, and everything was services, mostly in various : : : kinds of informational fields. He did not start discussing cyberspace. : : : But others started there and began to talk about the 'information : : : society', being the post-industrial society. The other was Alvin : : : Toffler, a popular writer, who wrote about these tendencies, in the : : : early seventies. Bell and Toffler became the unquestioned basis and : : : there was no remarkable criticism at the time. The elite critisized : : : Toffler for writing in such a popular manner, but that was nothing : : : serious. So these writers had the field to themselves. : : : The electronic basis of these writings is much more recent. ARPANET and : : : the Internet as an academic communication network preceded without a : : : great deal of attention. It is only less then 10 years that it has : : : brusted out into a much more generalized public. My view is that this : : : development has been very carefully cultivated by the standard forces. : : : Like governmental bureaus as the National Science Foundation, which : : : gave significant grants to individuals for the development of software. : : : There was a very delibirate promotion and encouragement. It was not all : : : so random and accidental or unplanned. : : : GL: How does Marshall McLuhan fit into this picture? : : : HS: McLuhan was taken up and given a lot of attention by the media : : : itself. They liked it that he emphasized the media issue, out of an : : : narcissistic interest. They found somebody who was making them appear : : : very significant. But I don't see him as a prophet of cyberspace or in : : : any direct line with the current business. In his early works, like : : : 'The Mechanical Bride', he was somewhat of a materialist, a social : : : critic. But then he got off into esoteric areas. : : : GL: George Gilder believes that the old, mass media monopolies will : : : soon crumble because of the empowering possibilities of individuals by : : : the so-called interactive, many-to-many media. There is a certain : : : similarity to your critique on the big media corporations. Could you : : : comment on that? : : : HS: All what one could do is look around. Do you see any indications? : : : The monopolies are stronger than ever and the concentration continues. : : : It now embraces a wide area, it is not just 'media', All forms of : : : communication are brought together in these unified corporate : : : conglomorates. You have Time-Warner, which has assets of about 20 : : : billion dollar and is operating radio stations, recording studios, film : : : studios, television programming and increasingly also retail stores, : : : where they sell the apparels that they produce in their movies. Disney : : : is of course an enormous conglomorate. Then there is Viacom, which : : : ownes MTV and does a great job in selling pop culture and making these : : : kids less and less capable of doing any thinking. But it also includes : : : computer companies, telephone companies. The television networks are : : : all owned by super conglomerates. CBS is owned by Westinghouse, NBC by : : : General Electric. ABC was just bought by Disney and Fox is owned by : : : Murdoch. To think that these are crumbeling, is like being in a : : : phantasyland. : : : We have to be carefull in using the word 'globalization' in this : : : context. It may to seem that everybody is participating in it and you : : : will have to, and if you don't you will fall behind and lose, we have : : : to be competitive, that thing. Globalization is a direction of super : : : corporations. They are using the globe to market their products and : : : penetrate every part of the world. But there is a big difference : : : between what they are doing and the whole world population. : : : GL: It might not be enough anymore to just practice ideology criticism. : : : The understanding of this expanding branch might also need an : : : economical analysis. : : : HS: You have to examine how things proceed. You might want to focus on : : : the commodification of information. What was free, is now owned, : : : proprietary information. What has to be looked at, is to what extend : : : the net itself becomes a privatized operation. Another area will be how : : : they are going to put television and broadcasting onto the internet. : : : That also is going to bring commercial advertisement. It will no longer : : : be open, available and free. : : : GL: How do the broadcasting media relate to the rapidly growing, but : : : still small cyber media? Noam Chomsky does not seem be very interested : : : in the Net. Perhaps he does not see its strategic importance. : : : HS: You have to examine this as things develop. It is an area of : : : continuous scrutiny and monitoring. Everything you will discover in the : : : areas of television and film will come back in the Net. The patterns : : : are going to be very similar. We are nowhere near to what they like to : : : call an information society. This term serves to camouflage what the : : : current reality is. The talk about the 'new' keeps the present level : : : left aside. We are living in a period of innocence and bankrupcy of : : : values. People are desperately looking for meaning, identity, etnicity, : : : gender. All of which are legitimate, but when they get to be : : : obsessional, they make it less possible to recognize what the : : : underlying, fundamental forces are. There is a lot of escapism in the : : : talking about 'are we now in the information society?' But many of : : : those people are sincere, so you can't make them seem as if they are : : : fools. : : : GL: What is your view on the role of cultural studies in all this? : : : HS: For me it is very ironic because I have tried always to include the : : : cultural component. I was aware about it from the very beginning when I : : : wrote about the role of cultural imperialism. All along comes cultural : : : studies and attacks the political economy approach as being too narrow : : : and too exclusive. At least in the United States, the main current of : : : cultural studies is to deny the legimimacy of the political economy of : : : mass communication. I do not mean it intentionally, but it has served : : : the dominant ideology as I see it. They do not want to see the : : : underlying reality of the images and messages they are looking at. 'The : : : act of the audience' puts people like myself in a curious situation. I : : : am not saying that everybody is a cultural dope. But I do have to : : : recognize where the cultural power is. I cannot accept it when they : : : talk about the opposition and resistance of viewers. If they are : : : reading women's books, romances, they are showing their resistance to : : : their way of life... This might be the case, but I don't regard that as : : : the type of resistance that will take us very far. : : : GL: Where do you see the roots of such a political economy of the : : : media? : : : HS: It has not such a long history, a few decades. I am trying to : : : indicate that the fundaments of a materialist philosophy are crucial to : : : an understanding. Students should have some sense of the social forms : : : that have evolved, from early capitalism til now, in terms of labor : : : and wage labor. These form do not disappear. : : : There is a great deal of materiality that can be pointed to, even in : : : the case of the internet. I don't think it is so remote. You can show : : : how those big companies get involved in all these different : : : activities. People themselves can recognize some relationships. You can : : : show the connections to organized sports, to the apparel industry, : : : which is producing baseball hats, football uniforms and the rest. The : : : cultural industry is so overt, so visible. : : : GL: Do you see a massification of the internet taking place? : : : HS: That might be the case. But this concept was mainly an oppositional : : : idea of what was happening in the media industry in the late thirties : : : and early fourties. It was an elitist view, which looked down on the : : : masses. So the term itself has to be looked at as an ideological : : : outlook. Persuasion, for example, was a big issue in the thirties, but : : : when mass communication became a formal discipline, they dropped it, : : : because persuasion would come too close to the nervous system. So they : : : switched the topic to the effects of communication. But that is a very : : : different question. : : : GL: What do you think of the equation of the internet with American : : : imperialism? Certain forms of anti-Americanism in Europe are not very : : : progressive... How do you look at this dilemma? : : : HS: I have looked on the phenomena of cultural imperialism for a long : : : time. This is not someting of the nineties. It even preceded the : : : American, there was the French, the Brittish and the Dutch imperialism. : : : It is not a new set of relationships. But we do have to ask overselves: : : : does the internet undermine the old relationships or do it reinforce : : : them? I am only trying to suggest that there are key people, key levels : : : in the United States who see a very practical utilization for : : : imperialistic purposes. That could be an alert signal. If the internet : : : is becoming a major vehicle for transnational corporate advertising, : : : you are quite justified in talking about the extension of cultural : : : imperialism into the internet. : : : Herbert I. Schiller, Information Inequality, The deepening social : : : crisis in America, Routledge, New York/London, 1996 : : : ISBN 0-415-90765-9

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